Velocity Limit Changes

[DMitri]

I do not see more snipers in the future either, but instead a slightly lower amount.

The last time the FPS limits were increased I'd say about 1 in 4 replica purchased was a bolt.

[Ninja2dan]

Maybe so, but was there a required safety course for fielding said weapons? I would also highly recommend that for the larger official events, anyone operating as a sniper (carrying a sniper rifle) be required to have attended the Scout/Sniper course. In order to do this though, the course must be made available more often. Same should be for SAW Gunners.

But as mentioned elsewhere, the more classes taught, the more instructors that can be trained and able to offer more classes in a wider selection of areas.

That's my opinion though. I think it would seriously help improve realism and entertainment value as well as to ensure safe practices on the field.

[Kendodude]

I still think the point of a SAW gunner is to Suppress the enemy... You don't need 450 FPS to suppress... Do you? Seriously, do you?
Even at long range, accuracy is exchanged for volume of fire. Does that require the volume of fire to be 450 FPS?

So if a head pops up at 20ft away, and you're already suppressing... are you going to shoot him? Of course you are! And how would it feel to have your face annihilated (chipped teeth and ear problems or even a possible problem with goggles) by 450 FPS? Engagements like that will happen eventually. I know we're not paintballers, but that still well damn hurts. 400 FPS is good enough, I don't believe we need to go the extra mile.

I'm just being precautious for the players.

[Ninja2dan]

To be honest, I also don't really understand the desire to increase the allowable limits of SAW's. I do understand the desire to increase sniper rifle limits though.

At the bottom of this post will be a chart showing the ranges of the actual weapons used by US Army units. You will notice that the maximum effective ranges of M16A2, M249, and M60 are all about the same (with the M60 having only slightly higher max range for area targets). It would seem best in my opinion to keep the power limits of SAW weapons the same as normal AEG's, and not to increase them. Rate of fire has nothing to do with my opinion, I base my opinion on the ranges of the real weapons.

On the other hand, I feel that in order for sniper teams to be able to act more realistically in the field during operations, their ranges need to be higher than other weapon systems. The proposed limit of 650 FPS is enough above AEG's to allow them the ability to reach their target with enough standoff distance to improve realism. And as such, increasing their range increases the chance of injury at close range. This is also why I would recommend all snipers AND automatic riflemen carry sidearms, to allow them to engage close-ranged targets without risk of injury. Even if a SAW retained the same limits as other AEG's, their ROF might slightly increase the chances of an injuring shot. Again, it would also increase realism.


Chart for modern weapons. Note Maximum Effective Ranges.



As a side note, I'm curious to know if there will be future changes to allowable magazine capacities? Little off topic, but due to the dispertion rates of airsoft weapons, I feel that 2X real-steel loadouts are the best option. This would be a fair loadout of ammunition for airsoft use, keeping things realistic. An example is to use 60-round magazines for M16-type weapons as compared to 30-rounds, and 400-rounds for SAW weapons instead of the real 200-round capacity. If there is possible discussion on this topic, can someone let me know? I don't want to start up more arguements about current regulations if the discussion will become a problem.

[Zahrdoz]

I like Cody - I call him friend - I dont want him carrying a 450fps gun. Think about all the kids who remind you of how Cody was - do you want them carrying a 450fps gun?

Who says I want him with a 450FPS weapon now?? Funny that you should mention Cody. He seems to always get shot in the face; considering this, if you increase the FPS it is going to hurt more. Of course you can say wear a face mask, but thats not the point here.

Guys, I know its unpopular to say, I know Im going against 90% of you, but I really dont think this is a good idea. I really truely honestly believe this is unsafe. We're in an unsafe sport already, and I just see this as pushing it further from safety.

With further thought, I am going to back Alex on this. I have been stictched by a 400fps AEG (Yes I know we are talking about squad weapons) and it laid me open. Personally, its no big deal but the last thing I want to see is some kid get hurt. We are talking roughly a 15% rise in power of the weapon. I believe that more safety precautions need to be in place before this goes into effect.

As a side note, I'm curious to know if there will be future changes to allowable magazine capacities? Little off topic, but due to the dispertion rates of airsoft weapons, I feel that 2X real-steel loadouts are the best option. This would be a fair loadout of ammunition for airsoft use, keeping things realistic.

In many games, (most notably the CQB competitions) we do roll with a realistic loadout. As it was explained to me a while ago; the increased magazine capactiy for an AEG was to balance out the deflection of the rounds off of things like, oh, tissue paper and wet seaweed.

[Matt]

Ninja - you make an interesting point, but keep in mind that the M60 has the same effective range of an M60, with a larger bullet. Many other 7.62 platforms that aren't listed there would as well. This is the same concept with an AEG, you can upgrade to .25 bbs and still keep a velocity of 400 fps, so you don't lose any range.

[Eclipzed]

I like the sniper change. As long as they adhere to there safety rules, and dont engage within the "safety" distance.

However I like a couple others are agianst the LMG/MG fps change. Tyrant got lite up once right next to someone with an M60 during the game at gresham. And was recovering for a while from the scars that thing gave. Last thing we need is for that same gun to be 425-450... Then we would be PULLING the bb's out of Tyrant. I know myself I have yet to be hit by a MG/LMG (That I know of) but I imagine I dont want to be if the FPS has been hired.

Not to mention if I am correct isnt a lmg/mg totally inaccurate??? How is making there FPS higher, giving them more accuracy going to help realisem?

[Rogue Reaper]

So if a head pops up at 20ft away, and you're already suppressing... are you going to shoot him?

How can someone shoot at them if they are keeping there head down. That is what suppresive fire is for. to keep your head down. If it is known that the Pig is shooting 450 you won't pop yer head up at 20 feet and you will be flanked and shot by someone other than the SAW.

A great point that the FPS will bring the SAW to its proper place in the mil-sim enviroment.

Thank you Kendo.

We are running a PDI 190 in Pats saw right now and it is right at 400 FPS. Think about this people, We are going to add a Tight bore barrel and that may raise the FPS what 20 FPS? so the idea of getting one of these actually to 450 without it disintegrating is probably pretty damn slim.

the other nice thing about the PGC style gearbox is that you can change the spring in about 30 seconds.

I am also woking on a heat saturation simulator.

[Eclipzed]

Not to contradict you Troy... But lets say that SAW comes around a corner and 20 ft away is someone. You both have seen each other... You really think they both are going to keep a level head and smile from 20ft away and say "Take cover so I can supress you and not shoot you with my 420-430 fps gun. "

What striked this change in FPS? The SAW's I saw at Grid 18 were getting some seriuse shooting. Infact the one I was guarding for a while plastered the enemy a couple of times. And how bout that one that was up in the tower? He would just lay down bb's on the enemy.

[Rogue Reaper]

there is a minimum contact distance for the saws just like the snipers.

Saw gunners must have a pistol back up. If you come around a corner and see a Saw you own him unless he already has his pistol out.

[Nightshade]

Let's see, what have we discussed behind closed doors already that everyone has brought up?

- Required sidearms
- Durability issues
- Courses for both types of platforms (though we had decided on only the sniper course)
- Ability to take easy to modify weapons and make them into SAWs
- Realism

We've been discussing this for a little over two weeks, and I know that Seagreen has been doing different tests with BB weights and increases in power vs accuracy. It has been his conclusion that a bolt-action firing 650fps would allow for that extra needed accuracy. The reason is that the increase in muzzle energy would not allow for increased range, but would allow the shooter to use a heavier weight BB and put the rounds right where they need to be.

Believe us guys, we don't want this sport to be unsafe either. We want to attempt to give the best MILSIM experiance possible, while having play be as safe as possible, and sacrificing as little fun as possible. That's why we all play, isn't it?

[KA-BAR]

ya know what, i know you all want to put your two cents in, but the only people responding to this thread should be team leaders, and APL administratots.... THAT IS IT! the people who have put these rules sets in place are more knowledgeable that you PEA BRAIN!! they spend long hours in disscussion about said issues, i am sure they dont need every "noob cannon" mentality throwing there two cents in. if you have serious experience with this community and its environment, then great, speak up.... if you are classified as a NOOB, DOOF, or GENERAL ANNOYANCE, then shut up about what you think....they dont care!!! let them hash it out.... the only people i have seen thus far make clear and accurate points is :alex-kaeda, OOHYA, dantes, seagreen, CASCA! people at moderator lvl.

now when this was originally disscussed it was done so in a private thread where the said participants, have gone over the new limits in a very rigorus disscussion! now after they have made thier decision they have chosen to deseminate the info to you guys, so you know the NEW rules....this thread was not started so that the topic is up for disscussion by the PEA BRAINED MASSES. with that said i have nothing valuable to add to the thread because i am not knowledgeable enuff in our community or our environment ( now was that so hard ya NOOBS), i trust you guys fully to do what is right and safe for the community!!

KA-BAR out

EDIT: i know i can be a edgy inflamitory bastard sometimes.... if you got offended then i am sorry, i just get frustrated, take me at face value plz, i am not here to make you hate me! if you do already...oppps. oh well!

[Nightshade]

Let's also not make this into a flame war, KA-BAR. People generally don't take kindly to being called "pea brained". Normally I wouldn't give two shits, but this is a very important and serious thread.

[KA-BAR]

get thier attention though..all i really care about at this moment!

[Rogue Reaper]

I have found that with my testing the .43 bb just above 600 FPS is twice as accurate as a .29 at 550. Range is improved a little but mostly by virtue of improved tragectory that can be utilized by a competent shooter.

I would much rather have someone with a .43 and 600 fps shooting at me and hitting eithing 3 inches of there pint of aim than a person shooting a .29 at 500 FPS and hitting within 16 inches of there point of aim.

I.E. I would rather have Bill shooting at my Helmet at 75 yards with a .43 and 600 FPS than Riddick shooting at me at 40 yards with a .29 and 500 FPS.

CASE IN POINT
(Riddick was shooting at a stationary crouching target to hit in my right hip.)