Velocity Limit Changes

[Matt]

I'd like to hear a reason why another 50 FPS is needed for a SAW to fufill the role.

A slight increase in effective range. Aside from the 249, most LMGs have the same or better effective range than a long AR but with a heavier round (7.62). A gunner can use .25g instead of .20, or a mix, and still achieve a decent range in fire and send rounds downrange so that his fireteam can move.

A Sniper Rifle is a feared tool on the field, especially in the right hands. It can bog down entire squads if they don't know what they're doing or where the fire is coming from.

Any kid with hi-caps can compare to a squad gunner. With an increase in velocity, the squad gun becomes a more effective force multiplier. Squad guns are cumbersome, huge, and hard to manage. They're an expensive investment up front and they're also expensive to maintain. Why carry a heavy hunk of metal like that when any kid with a standard AK and a 600 round hicap can do the same thing? <-- That is exactly the type of gaming we're trying to get away from. We don't want the booger eaters in tennis shoes who own 1 AK and 1 hicap. We want people who are serious about milsim and getting into the role.

Also, many LMGs can be vehicle mounted. These should be 450 as well, vehicles should have a better range than standard infantry.

[pittsmen]

If you shoot someone's tooth out, I want you paying dental bills. Nothing learns you faster than loss of money or pain.

First of all my gripe was not the fps, personally I think there should be no fps limits, but you should qualify for what ever speed you are at. I.E. every person with out any form of cert must run bone stock, then there is cert for every 100+ FPS after that. The biggest airsoft communities in the world have no FPS limits and they also have no problems. That includes many in the united states. I will go with what ever "WE" decide. As for cobols blatant ingnorance, that is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say, up until five minutes ago you where in my mind one of the most respectable people in our community. WOW. This sport is play at your own risk PERIOD. It is not a basic right to play airsoft, if you cant take the hit don’t play the game to bad I don’t care. I have broken peoples arms shoulders and backs, I have paralyzed an opponent in a wrestling match and I won the match guess who payed the bills, he did, tough shit you step on the mat you sign your life over to the wind. That is true for all sports and should be no different for ours. This community is built on a basic trust, I don’t sue you, you don’t sue me, this is how we are aloud to play on private property, the second somebody becomes a dirty bastard and sues somebody then guess what, our sport will be dead. Lets not be stupid hear people if "WE" were smart and I know “weâ€

[Rico]

KA-BAR wrote:
ya know what, i know you all want to put your two cents in, but the only people responding to this thread should be team leaders, and APL administrators.... THAT IS IT!

I don't see anything in the initial post dictating who can and cannot have an opinion here. If an issue is only for AP and Team-leaders, then it will be posted in an appropriate forum that is not accessible to the Public.

In fact, we do want to hear from everyone, and appreciate people's input.
Although this is not a majority vote, we base lots of our decisions on the opinions that we here from our community. Our goal is to deliver a level of game play in AP hosted games that promotes realism and safety.

Thank you.

[Cobol]

Np. Pat, and in the majority of the cases I agree with you. Injury is a part of the sport, and no one in their right mind would actually sue for such a thing. I guess I intended the potienial liability as more a looming threat that helps keeps people from being intentionally stupid and shooting people in the face just to cause pain. Fighting and wrestling is a different story in my mind. When I step in a ring I know that I can stop the pain whenever I want by tapping out. I can't really tap out of having a BB lodged in my throat because some guy with a rifle thought it'd be funny to watch me react in pain to a skin shot. Much like other sports, I don't expect the liablity to actually be enforced, but my point was that it would curb some of the blatent stupidity. Really, it's just my current thought. It may change in the future depending on how I feel, or what day it is, or how much beer I drink, or what color my underware are...

[Rico]

Are snipers under the age of 18 going to be allowed to run over 600 or will they be limited lower?

The courses are currently under development. Any age restrictions for participation in the courses will be announced when the curriculum and other details have been finalized. Specific qualifiers will be announced with the announcement of the course.

[yandle]

Are snipers under the age of 18 going to be allowed to run over 600 or will they be limited lower?

The courses are currently under development. Any age restrictions for participation in the courses will be announced when the curriculum and other details have been finalized. Specific qualifiers will be announced with the announcement of the course.

Ha, I think I got the same exact responce from bill.

[Eyes On]

Scheduling:

I have developed a preliminary course of fire for certification. I have submitted it to be scrutinized by team leaders within the community. Once the course of fire is finalized, we will develop a reasonable syllabus. The course of fire is not easy, but it certainly isn't overly difficult either.

Some things that need to happen:
1. Develop syllabus.
2. Run an instructors course to certify the trainers.
3. Arrange for an open qualification day where range time does not conflict with platform qualification.

Until that is done (and I'm hoping we can get instructors certified in the next 2-3 weeks), continue life as normal.

[RedSpo0n]

Personally, I've always used stock-power AEGs myself. Just no reason for me to upgrade. With this new stuff in effect, I'll still probably shoot stock. I'm just like that.

Ka-Bar - I didn't have anything much to say until now, but you certainly seem to have an oppinion of me that is missinformed.

I may not have the 'post-count' to prove it, but I've been around the community since before APST existed - the general assumption that because I don't have a team means that I'm ill-equiped to discuss what's happening in the community is way off.

This is a safety issue for all the players, not just those with a team.

While I understand your meaning (dont' clutter the thread if you have nothing to say), It's not reasonable to tell the community at large: unless your a team leader, you have no voice.

Anyway, I figure, if people have to purchase and maintain a SAW, attend the qualification course, and maintain safe practices - There's no problem.

Honestly, every time you go out to the field, there's the chance that some hoodlum will act recklessly with thier replica and get someone hurt. Stock guns can still mess up your eyes if you abuse them.

If the people using the 'high-power' SAWs have proven they can handle the responsbility (I assume that's part of the course, or a prereq for the course), then go for it.

It's like how I trust Seagreen with a 650FPS sniper rifle. He's proven he can handle the responsibility. (And he proved it before he was ever the 'Bad-ass' sniper).

Anyway, Summation: I agree with the new rules becuase I trust the people incharge to handle those few people who will decide to misbehave.

*Edit - For horrible mispelling because I was typing to fast*

[DMitri]

I support the seperate waivers for Snipers

You shoot my tooth out at 650 fps because you're an idiot, you're paying the bill. That's not unreasonable at all. What's unreasonable is that you need a gun with 250 fps boost over the average and you can't hit your target accurately. Pat if you broke my back in the ring and I were in a wheelchair, you'd see me in court. You talk like a big man, but if you were actually responsible for your actions you'd act like one too.

[Ninja2dan]

I think that the specific rules regarding the sniper waivers should be discussed and voted on seperately, because they will affect many people and can be a problem if not specific as possible.

Example: You shoot Billy in the back with a max-power (Joules) BB at around 175 ft. The projectile hits him on a thin-skinned area and the impact causes the skin to break and bleed, as well as leave a large welt. Billy yells out "Deeaamm! That hurt!", and walks out to the triage area. Billy also happens to be a minor, and his parents have come with him for the game. They see the injury, put the blame on the shooter, and because a waiver was signed by the shooter claiming responsibility for injury, they take Billy to the hospital for "treatment". The shooter then recieves a $300 bill from Billy's parents to cover expenses.

The level of injury that can be claimed responsible on the shooter's part needs to be discussed at length, in the case that such waivers would be used. It should also be reminded that accidents can happen that are NOT at the shooter's and/or target's fault. If a shooter fires at a target and is aiming for center mass, and a wind gust causes the projectile to hit target in the neck instead causing minor injury, does this mean the shooter should be responsible?

There is a lot of legality issues being mentioned, and I don't think anyone posting so far has a degree in Law. So please, for everyone's sake (and I'm sure this is already known by the AP staff), don't decide on a rule unless it has been thought out on all levels. Waivers for injury can be good AND bad, depending on how well they are written out.

As for the rest of the FPS rules, I think it has been settled. Although I personally don't see why a SAW should have an increase, if it is what the communit and AP staff decide, then I'll have no choice. I understand the point about making them "better" than some noobs 400fps ak with hi-cap, but I also thought that during AP events there was a realistic magazine limit? Again, I'm still new to this community. Either way, the increase won't really matter much. The safety course for both weapon types is the biggest importance in my opinion.

And for anyone who has posted recently about people who are not long-standing members or team leaders and their posts not meaning jack, you might want to consider the fact that not everyone who joins up airsoft is a "noob". I am a good example of this fact, that although I am fairly new to airsoft, I am not new to military combat or MilSim. I don't claim to know all, but I do feel that my opinion has some importance in matters like this, where the new rules will affect the realism of the sport as well as the safety. Same goes for many others who might not have a ton of posts or have 2+ years on this forum site. No flaming or pointing fingers, I just wanted to make this point.

[Eyes On]

The standard waiver is fine. We don't need to change it. It's been vetted by legal professionals.

[DMitri]

It should also be reminded that accidents can happen that are NOT at the shooter's and/or target's fault.

WRONG! The shooter brought the gun on the field. The shooter pulled the trigger.

If a shooter fires at a target and is aiming for center mass, and a wind gust causes the projectile to hit target in the neck instead causing minor injury, does this mean the shooter should be responsible?

A Shooter is aiming at quail, the sun gets in his eyes, the shooter shoots his buddy in the face, should he be responsible. <---- That's how dumb that sounded.

[Eyes On]

Look, we're not going to go after everyone whose BB's break skin. If you haven't bled from a BB hit already, then you're about as lucky as you're going to be. There are two principles in law called "Voluntary, Mutual Combat" and "Acceptance of Risk". These are the two principles that every game in the US is based on. Without these principles, you would be well served to have your attorney follow you around on the field with a video camera.

We're not going to throw people off the field just because someone bleeds a little. On the other hand, if it comes to pass that a whole lot of people are bleeding, then there might be cause to discuss the matter with the offender... and by "discuss" I mean throw off the field after using his gun to conduct a colon exam on him.

If you're going to sweat someone getting hit on bare skin during an AIRSOFT GAME, either wear a suit of full armor, or don't play. I sure as hell am not going to be out there holding anyone's hand. READ THE WAIVER, it clearly states acts of GROSS NEGLIGENCE vs common occurrences.

[Billdozer]

I have a radical idea that would eliminate the need for 450 fps SAWs. Don't allow the use of hicaps.

Although it'll never happen, I can always hope.

[Seagreen]

5686,

That is a novel idea, but unrealistic. Too many people are budget oriented when they jump into the game. Id rather be able to bring new people in and foster mil-sim play overall, rather than excluding the average joe by requiring a couple hundred dollars in standard mags.