Velocity Limit Changes

Airsoft safety discussion. Post here with questions about laws and safety concerns.

Velocity Limit Changes

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:41 pm

EDIT JULY 16th 2009 - THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT AP FPS LIMIT. CURRENT LIMITS ARE 0.20/400-AEG, 0.20/550-BOLT and 0.20/330-INDOOR.

Velocity limits for Airsoft Pacific games have been adjusted to better facilitate a realistic mil-sim environment.

Gas Pistols - Green Gas
Fully/Semi Automatics (ARs, SMGs) - 400 fps (1.5j)
SAW/LMG (ARs with Box Mags will NOT qualify, safety class required to exceed 400) - 450 fps (1.88j)
Sniper Rifles (Bolt Action ONLY, safety class required) - 650 FPS (3.9j)
CQB/Indoor - All under 300 fps (0.8j)


SAW/LMG Rule will only apply to actual SAW/LMG replicas or kit guns, slapping a box mag on your M16 does not make it a SAW. This is introduced to give SAW gunners a slight range increase so they'll be able to better function as a squad gunner role.

Sniper Rifles have been increased but the number of sniper rifles on the field will be drastically DECREASED. We feel that the influx of sniper rifles on the field is making the playfield more dangerous, and the ratio of rifles to actual full auto ARs is unrealistic. AP events from now on will require screening for snipers, safety classes will be offered to get certified to operate them and the number of snipers per side will be limited (as with other major OP style games in the nation). Furthermore, these snipers will have superior range and be able to maintain that range with a heavier round (more accuracy too) with the raised velocity limit.

EDIT JULY 16th 2009 - THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT AP FPS LIMIT. CURRENT LIMITS ARE 0.20/400-AEG, 0.20/550-BOLT and 0.20/330-INDOOR.
Last edited by Matt on Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:49 pm

Who qualifys for a 450fps gun? As in - if I wanted to form a fireteam of 4 SAW gunners, whats to keep me from being dangerous? What form of training/certification does it take to start laying down the plastic law with one of these beasts.

What is the absolute minimum ratio of SAW type weapons to riflemen?

What constitutes a SAW? As in, if I slap a box magazine on a G3, does it become a HK21? Or does it require some physical conversions to the body of the weapon?
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Postby Seagreen » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:53 pm

It states in the SAW/LMG spec what is and what is not a LMG. (notice it says kit or specific replica) An itemized list will be created if there is any confusion over the accepted replicas designs.

SAW owners qualify. Admins will police unsafe play and deal with it accordingly.
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Postby Billdozer » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:55 pm

Well I'm not against this rule, but unless there is a fairly involved qualification (like play x number of games, attend this safety course, etc), then I don't like it.
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Postby Matt » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:57 pm

Also note that some other organizations use a 420-450 fps limit for ALL fully automatic AEGs, and have conducted safe games for a long time with those limits. We're only raising the limit for a small percentile of AEGs, in hopes to better define the specific roles on the battlefield.
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Postby Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:59 pm

So, all I have to do is buy a G3/SG1, slap on a new handguard, and a new stock, and I can take it to 450fps.
http://www.hkpro.com/image/hk112.jpg
Thats an HK21.

Or how about an M14 squad automatic - it was used a SAW at one point . . . . shoot, I just might pick up an M14, and start doing a little custom work.
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Postby yandle » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:59 pm

This should be pushed as hard as the sniper qualifications if not harder because of the ROF.
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Postby Seagreen » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:59 pm

The community/Admins will adequately police unsafe behavior 5686. If people are really in question of the person using the LMG, make it known. If it is a pretty universal problem, it can be dealt with accordingly.

Also, dont look at the 450fps as the norm, it will be the ceiling. Most will be in the 425-435 range with the type of upgrades available.
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Postby terror management » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:03 am

this rule is to add a little more realism to the game. i know our heavy gunner is going to be delighted
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Postby Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:13 am

I spent a lot of time thinking about this. I went and re-watched a couple videos, and took a look at photos, thinking about individual players.

This is only going to encourage one thing - more people with SAW type weapons. Every booger eater who can put his hands on a AK47, or G36 is going to - because they're the easiest to convert into a SAW type weapon. I dont think it matters if we say "you cant make Ciener belt fed M16's, or Shrikes, or Colt/Diemaco H-Bar M16 SAW's", the guys who see a way to raise their fps 450 are going to grab a different platform.

How about when the Full Auto Gun Squad, and the Newborne Rangers. They come in with regular rifles, then rapidly convert into a SAW heavy unit. They're too inexperienced to have a clue about the durability of design, and they honestly dont care. They're after the almighty FPS.

Im going to use another example. At the Zombie game, I was teamed up with a couple guys to form the MI6 team. We made it into the city - and in theory we were supposed to be firing semi-automatic (short bursts to keep type two gearboxes from locking up). In practice Kendo was laying on the ground, being a zombie, and every time he would twitch, one of the guys I was with would dump his G36 on Kendo, at pretty short range. And in theory this player was an 'Experienced Player'.

I honestly believe that if that player had been carrying a MG36, he would have done the exact same thing (excessive fire, at dangerously short range). And I dont think that it matters that it was Kendo (because some out there reading this are saying "Oh, its just Kendo"). I think you could drop anyones name in to that position, and its going to happen. I like the guys I was teamed up with - dont get me wrong - but I see them as a typical example of quite a few players out there. And I think that theres entirely too many people who are dangerous.

How about another example. Yuri/SniperC4. He's come a long way from when he was a bleeding cherry wearing that Navy SEAL patch and pissing in everyones cheerios. There's some of us who would even call him 'friend'. Think about a year or two ago . . . . . . would you want him carrying a 450fps gun? I like Cody - I call him friend - I dont want him carrying a 450fps gun. Think about all the kids who remind you of how Cody was - do you want them carrying a 450fps gun?

Guys, I know its unpopular to say, I know Im going against 90% of you, but I really dont think this is a good idea. I really truely honestly believe this is unsafe. We're in an unsafe sport already, and I just see this as pushing it further from safety.

SAW's and similar weapons have an advantage in that they're designed to really spray down bb's for an extended period of time. Instead of looking to raise the fps limits for SAW's, why not look at restricting drum-type magazines to SAW type weapons, and using the "Must Look Like Its Real Counterpart" to determine what a SAW type weapon is.
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Postby saddaminator » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:15 am

so would an mg36 qualify as a saw? i only ask because wh have one on the way from STAR (complete with reflex and bipod). and we were going to put on a C mag that we got for Grid 18. i mean, the real steel mg36 is just a g36 w/ bipod and drum mag. maby only sertain types of saws should be allowed.
btw, this means that i can rais the fps on my M2 to 440 ish w/ .2's right? because its a heavy mg.
also, do you have to attend the sniper course to get cirtified to be a sniper, no mater the fps on your gun? i mean, if i want to be Mr. 1337 snipx0r, can i still use a 500 fps gun without being a certified sniper? or is that rule for all snipers. i anly ask because living in central oregon, it might be a little hard for our team sniper (not me) to make it over.

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maby we could make it so that to qualify as a saw, the replica must be "belt fed". no drum mags on AK's and g36's. just a thought.
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Postby Eyes On » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:27 am

No, any even we host, if you have not taken the qual course (note: this is not the scout sniper course) your bolt-action gun is limited to 400fps. ANYTHING that exceeds 400 FPS requires attendance at a certification course. The details of which will be announced shortly.

This rule does not go into immediate effect. We have to get the courses set up and running. Obviously there is going to be a lot of initial interest in getting them done.

As for what does and does not qualify as an LMG. We are compiling a list of that info. Do not expect items like the M-14 support weapon or the M16 LSW to be on it. We are going to certify a certain number of platforms, and that is going to be the list of guns you can use to qualify at the higher FPS at our games. The draft list is fairly diverse, and all national genre's aer going to be accommodated. Just have a little patience.
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Postby saddaminator » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:39 am

alex_kaeda wrote:So, all I have to do is buy a G3/SG1, slap on a new handguard, and a new stock, and I can take it to 450fps.
http://www.hkpro.com/image/hk112.jpg
Thats an HK21.

no, thats an hk21 with a magazene adapter. it requires a new lower to be installed and a new bolt carrier. the true hk21 in its stock form requires a belt feed.
http://www.hkpro.com/hk21e.htm
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Postby pittsmen » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:12 am

I think we had better step back and make sure there is a set structure for sustaining these new regulations rather then bolting them out and then answering questions by the seat of your pants. If this was meant to gauge interest you should have said so, however you laid this down as the law and then started amending it as you went along. Lets get some of our details straight before we start making up new rules for the league.
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Postby Ninja2dan » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:43 am

alex_kaeda wrote:Who qualifys for a 450fps gun? As in - if I wanted to form a fireteam of 4 SAW gunners, whats to keep me from being dangerous? What form of training/certification does it take to start laying down the plastic law with one of these beasts.

What is the absolute minimum ratio of SAW type weapons to riflemen?

What constitutes a SAW? As in, if I slap a box magazine on a G3, does it become a HK21? Or does it require some physical conversions to the body of the weapon?


I think that people should start looking at how their teams are composed, and try to regulate their team positions to meet accordance to realistic military organization. If this is supposed to be MilSim, then team assignments should be simulated as well. This means that there should be two fireteams per squad, and each fireteam should be organized properly. A normal fireteam is made up of a Team Leader, Rifleman, Grenadier, and Automatic Rifleman (aka SAW Gunner). So to answer your question, there should only be one SAW per four men (as per US Army organization).

I also think that in the future there will be training classes designed for "specialized" positions, such as Sniper and AR. There is already discussion about future SAW Gunner classes, and there are already Scout/Sniper classes in the works. It might be possible that classes will be set up for Grenadiers as well, although airsoft grenade weapons are a lot different than the real thing. Anti-armor personnel that use heavy weapons such as rocket launchers might have training classes too, not being an AP staff member I am only guessing. I have seen several simulated rocket launchers that might be deemed "unsafe" in the hands of inexperienced people.

I am personally very happy with this change. So far I have seen very few people with sniper rifles performing proper sniper activities. I have the impression so far that the majority of people who use sniper rifles are just wanting to go "Rambo" and sneak around racking up the kills like a Lone Wolf. From what I've read on this site and from what I've seen from local airsoft groups, so-called "Snipers" usually have no idea at all what a real sniper is, or what a real sniper's purpose is. So by limiting the number of snipers on the field and requiring them to have attended a weapon safety class (due to higher power of their weapons, hence more dangerous if used by inexperienced player), then fewer people will be running around with such weapons. This should then lead to more people actually behaving like real snipers during events compared to what I've seen lately. As I always say, realism is key.

And just because these new rules will allow people to upgrade their automatic rifles to a higher energy limit, I still don't see a drastic increase in SAW weapon buyers. Due to their higher cost and maintenance, even now few people own them. I don't really see an increase in buyers, but simply see a few people who already own them to upgrade them once the change is in full effect. I do not see more snipers in the future either, but instead a slightly lower amount. Although power limits and range are now going to be increased, I see the rules on sniper employment becoming more realistic (aka "Strict"). This means that many current "snipers" will be dropping out of the sniper roles, leaving only the serious marksmen. I see a much brighter future in AP events due to these new rules and what they will bring in regards to operational changes.
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