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Theairsoftdude
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yandle
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 Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Full definition of a Carbine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine ) google is your friend remember that. There is no difference between carbines and regular airsoft guns. Carbine is a term for a shorter and a somewhat less powerful firearm, but with airsoft FPS can be retained between guns; basically meaning its only a term for a shorter gun in airsoft.
As for the SPC ( Special Purpose Carbine ) I don't know why CA gave it that name so I wont go into it.
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Theairsoftdude
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. But Wikipedia is wrong on one point. The m4 was devolped be for the m16 series, Right?
Last edited by Theairsoftdude on Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Valentine
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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no.
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Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I
Age: 31
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Theairsoftdude wrote: |
| Thanks. But Wikipedia is wrong on one point. The m4 was devolped be for the m16 series, Right? |
Negative Ghostrider.
I am not going to bother covering the AR15/M16, M16A1, various variations on the XM177/CAR15. Instead I am going to focus on the M16A2 and on (as, in my eyes, the M16A2 and M4's development are more closely intertwined).
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-3.html
| Quote: |
| September 1982: The M16A1E1 is officially type-classified as the M16A2. |
| Quote: |
| November 1982: The M16A2 is adopted as Standard 'A'. The USMC places an initial order for 26,028 rifles. |
| Quote: |
September 1984: Colt is awarded a third contract for 63,188 M16A2 rifles.
Colt holds a meeting to begin development of a M16A2-based carbine, what will later become the XM4. |
| Quote: |
| June 1985: Colt is awarded a contract for 40 XM4 carbines for military testing. |
From my understanding, these early carbines can be generally considered to be Model 727 standard (A2 upper, 14.5 inch barrel without cut-out for the M203) - however, there have been other variations seen in use by various military groups. A2 uppers with 11.5 inch barrels, A1 uppers with 11.5 or 14.5 inch barrels, 16 inch barrels, early flat-top upper recievers, etc.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-4.html
| Quote: |
| February 1986: Colt delivers 40 XM4 carbines to Picatinny. The carbines are not yet equipped with the double heat shield handguards. |
| Quote: |
| April: TECOM starts the XM4 Carbine program with a direct entry into Development Test / Operational Test II. The USMC is the first to standardize the M4, with the goal of issuing them to their Special Operations Capable (SOC) units then under development. Reportedly, the only compact shoulder weapons authorized for use by Force Recon to this point has been the M3A1 SMG (bolstered by very unofficial use of XM177E2). Unfortunately, procurement funds for the Marines' carbines are killed during Congressional review in following budgets, and the matter is eventually dropped until the 1990s. |
| Quote: |
1994:
The US military finally accepts an improved buffer assembly for the M4/M4A1 originally recommended during the carbine's initial development. Previously, the military did not want to introduce a new part different from that used by previous Colt carbines in inventory.
The USMC approves "Operational Requirements Document 1.14." This document repaves the long and twisting path for the eventual adoption of the M4A1 Carbine by Force Recon and other units with need of a CQB weapon more capable than the current pistol-caliber SMG (HK MP5-N).
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| Quote: |
| August: The US Army officially adopts the M4 and M4A1 Carbines. Colt is awarded ~$11 million for 24,000 carbines. Only the first lot of M4 will be delivered with fixed carrying handles. Afterwards, all M4/M4A1 in inventory will be shipped with flat-top upper receivers. |
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Theairsoftdude
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I thought that I heard the following somwhere
"The M4 has a collapsible stock simmaler to the CAR-15 but a slightly longer barrel. This contributed to the later devolpment of the M16A1. |
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Gunny
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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You heard wrong.
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Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I
Age: 31
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Theairsoftdude wrote: |
Sorry I thought that I heard the following somwhere
"The M4 has a collapsible stock simmaler to the CAR-15 but a slightly longer barrel. This contributed to the later devolpment of the M16A1. |
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history.htm
| Quote: |
In 1964, Colt began a research and development program, known as the Colt Automatic Rifle 15 (CAR15) program. The objective of the CAR15 program was to expand the diversity of the newly adopted M16 series, and to prevent the military from adopting any other firearms that may be perceived as competition for the M16 series.
There were seven prototype models of the CAR15 series, which included: an M16 with a 40mm grenade launcher attachment, a carbine with a 15" barrel adopted as the CAR15 Carbine (Colt 605), a magazine-fed heavy-barrel light-machinegun adopted as the M1 Heavy Assault Rifle (Colt 606), a belt-fed heavy-barrel light-machinegun known as the M2 Heavy Assault Rifle, a multipurpose medium-machinegun known as the Colt CMG1, a submachinegun with a 10" barrel and two-position retractable stock, adopted as the CAR15 Submachinegun (Colt 607), as well as another submachinegun with a 10" barrel and fixed tubular stock, adopted as the CAR15 Survival Rifle (Colt 608). While these firearms possessed features such as grenade launcher attachments or burst-firing capabilities that were later standardized with the production of the XM177 and M16A2 series, the only prototypes in the CAR15 series that were put into production were the M1 Heavy Assault Rifle and the CAR15 Submachinegun.
Less than 150 M1 Heavy Assault Rifles produced, however the production of the CAR15 Submachinegun seemed promising. By early 1966, the US Army anticipated the purchase 2050 CAR15 submachineguns. On June 28, 1966, the US Army Chief of Staff for Force Development authorized the order for a total of 2815 CAR15 Submachineguns, with the model designation CAR15 ‘Commando’. After the CAR15 Submachinegun successfully completed the Engineering Design test at the Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland, it was soon discovered that it was not without it's problems.
The prototype CAR15 Submachinegun consisted of: a telescoping two-position cut-down XM16E1 stock, a AR15 upper and lower receiver, a lightened hard-chromed bolt-carrier, a triangular AR15 charging handle, a chopped XM16E1 grip, a handmade cut-down XM16E1 handguard, a 10" barrel, and a three-prong AR15 flash-suppressor.
After the XM16E1 was approved with the signing of contract "508", the CAR15 Submachinegun was updated with the newer features which included: an XM16E1 upper and lower receiver with take-down pin retainer and tear-drop forward-assist, a parkerized bolt-carrier, and a t-shaped charging handle. The AR15 flash-suppressor on the CAR15 submachinegun was also replaced with a new moderator that was designed to slowly release noise and flash through the use of multiple expansion chambers; as to prevent the short barrel's unwelcoming muzzle-blast.
The initial moderator used on the CAR15 Submachinegun was approximately 3.5" long and through the use of a tight exit hole, successfully brought the firearm’s muzzle-blast down to that of a standard M16 rifle. On the same account, due to the tight exit hole, the moderator was found to develop heavy copper deposits which lead to tracer failures. The initial moderator was then modified to provided better flash suppression and utilized a larger exit-hole to accommodate the use of special-purpose ammunition.
During the week of January 23, 1967, the CAR15 Submachinegun developed improvements which consisted of a telescoping two-position aluminum stock that revolved around the firearm's buffer-tube assembly and a pair of interchangable round handguards. These improvements led to the adoption of the US Army XM177E1 'Commando' (Colt 609) and US Air Force XM177 (Colt 610). The only difference between the two firearms was the US Air Forces's preference to not have a forward-assist.
The final improvements to the XM177 series came with the adoption of the XM177E2 (Colt 629) during the week of April 17, 1967. The XM177E2 contained many of the same components as the XM177E1, but incorporated a longer 11.5" barrel and 4.5" moderator with grenade ring; that were required by the adoption of the XM148 (Colt CGL4) grenade launcher and the necessity to have a firearm capable of launching rifle grenades. Consequently, of the XM177 series, the moderator on the XM177E2 provided the best combination of reliability and suppression.
As previously mentioned, the only difference between the US Army XM177E1 and US Air Force XM177 was the US Air Force's preference to not have a forward-assist. Similarly, the US Air Force adopted it's own variants of the XM177 series that started with the prefix GAU-5 or Gun/Aircraft Unit. For example, the XM177 (Colt 610), was designated the GAU-5/A. With the adoption of the XM177E2 (Colt 629), the US Air Force designated the standard XM177E2 as the GAU-5/A/B, and later without a forward assist as the GAU-5/A/A (Colt 630).
During the 1970’s, under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) classified the XM177 series moderator as a sound suppressor; defined by a reduction of two decibels or more. Consequently, the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) of 1976, prevented exportation of the XM177 series moderators. Colt then sent out a letter to owners of the XM177 series along with a replacement faux moderator and reconfigured the export models with A1 flash suppressors.
With the XM177 series moderators' being restricted, Colt produced carbine versions of the M16 and M16A1 rifles adopted by the US Army as the M16A1 Carbine (Colt 653) and US Air Force as the GAU-5/P (Colt 654). The M16 Carbine series shared many similarities with the XM177 series including the telescoping two-position aluminum buttstock and interchangeable round handguards. Unlike the XM177 series, the M16 Carbine series utilized a bayonet-lug and a longer 14.5" barrel; the length of which was determined by the overall length of an XM177 series barrel and moderator combination. Other differences to the M16 Carbine series included an A1 flash-suppressor, and it's ability to accept both the M7 bayonet and M203 grenade launcher.
Since the introduction of the CAR15 series in 1964, many of the features developed throughout it's production are still in use today. For example, the telescoping stock of the CAR15 Submachinegun has been further developed from the XM177 series, and today is standard on all carbine-size M16 series rifles. The interchangeable handguards of the XM177 series have since been refined and adopted for use on both full-size and carbine-size M16 series rifles.
While the term ‘CAR15’ originated with the CAR15 program, many people have never heard of the CAR15 series, and thus associate it with the only CAR15 that was produced on a large scale, the CAR15 Submachinegun. Consequently, the synonym 'CAR15' has become a universal reference for short-barrel M16's and is believed to implicate Carbine AR15, and not Colt Automatic Rifle 15. |
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Theairsoftdude
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| alex_kaeda wrote: |
| Theairsoftdude wrote: |
| Thanks. But Wikipedia is wrong on one point. The m4 was devolped be for the m16 series, Right? |
Negative Ghostrider.
I am not going to bother covering the AR15/M16, M16A1, various variations on the XM177/CAR15. Instead I am going to focus on the M16A2 and on (as, in my eyes, the M16A2 and M4's development are more closely intertwined).
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-3.html
| Quote: |
| September 1982: The M16A1E1 is officially type-classified as the M16A2. |
| Quote: |
| November 1982: The M16A2 is adopted as Standard 'A'. The USMC places an initial order for 26,028 rifles. |
| Quote: |
September 1984: Colt is awarded a third contract for 63,188 M16A2 rifles.
Colt holds a meeting to begin development of a M16A2-based carbine, what will later become the XM4. |
| Quote: |
| June 1985: Colt is awarded a contract for 40 XM4 carbines for military testing. |
From my understanding, these early carbines can be generally considered to be Model 727 standard (A2 upper, 14.5 inch barrel without cut-out for the M203) - however, there have been other variations seen in use by various military groups. A2 uppers with 11.5 inch barrels, A1 uppers with 11.5 or 14.5 inch barrels, 16 inch barrels, early flat-top upper recievers, etc.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-4.html
| Quote: |
| February 1986: Colt delivers 40 XM4 carbines to Picatinny. The carbines are not yet equipped with the double heat shield handguards. |
| Quote: |
| April: TECOM starts the XM4 Carbine program with a direct entry into Development Test / Operational Test II. The USMC is the first to standardize the M4, with the goal of issuing them to their Special Operations Capable (SOC) units then under development. Reportedly, the only compact shoulder weapons authorized for use by Force Recon to this point has been the M3A1 SMG (bolstered by very unofficial use of XM177E2). Unfortunately, procurement funds for the Marines' carbines are killed during Congressional review in following budgets, and the matter is eventually dropped until the 1990s. |
| Quote: |
1994:
The US military finally accepts an improved buffer assembly for the M4/M4A1 originally recommended during the carbine's initial development. Previously, the military did not want to introduce a new part different from that used by previous Colt carbines in inventory.
The USMC approves "Operational Requirements Document 1.14." This document repaves the long and twisting path for the eventual adoption of the M4A1 Carbine by Force Recon and other units with need of a CQB weapon more capable than the current pistol-caliber SMG (HK MP5-N).
|
| Quote: |
| August: The US Army officially adopts the M4 and M4A1 Carbines. Colt is awarded ~$11 million for 24,000 carbines. Only the first lot of M4 will be delivered with fixed carrying handles. Afterwards, all M4/M4A1 in inventory will be shipped with flat-top upper receivers. |
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Are you sure that your information is acurate? I'm not qestioning you, but I found the following section from the book The Warrior Elite: Forging of SEAL Class 228
By Dick Couch(Dont make fun of his name, He is a great man)
I qoute "In the Teams, SEALs choose from a variety of rifles, handguns, and submachine guns, but the basic weapon is the M4. The M4 is a shortened refinement of the M16 rifle that has been a U.S. Military standered since the 1960's. It is similar to the CAR-15 in that it has a semicollapsible stock, but the M4 has a slighly longer barrel."
(The book is somthing that I highly reccomend to anyone who wants to learn about SEAL Training. There Is a seris of three currently out. The next to are The finnishing school: Earning the Trident, and , Downrange Do you have another document from a diffrent website I would belive you, but for right now I going to have to go with the guy who served as a SEAL unit commander in Veitnam, and led one of the only Successfull POW rescue missions... |
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Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I
Age: 31
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7511
Location: Google makes me clever. Photoshop makes me beautiful.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure that the information I posted is accurate.
| Theairsoftdude wrote: |
| "In the Teams, SEALs choose from a variety of rifles, handguns, and submachine guns, but the basic weapon is the M4. The M4 is a shortened refinement of the M16 rifle that has been a U.S. Military standered since the 1960's. It is similar to the CAR-15 in that it has a semicollapsible stock, but the M4 has a slighly longer barrel." |
What we are looking at here is order-of-operation.
What Dick Couch is saying can be summed up as this. The basic weapon is the M4. The M4 is a shortened version of the M16. The M16 (in various versions) has been in use since the 1960's. The M4 is similar to the CAR15, in that it has a short barrel, and a telescopic stock, but the M4 has a longer barrel (14.5 inches) than most of the earlier versions (the most common being the XM177 series, having a 10.5 or 11.5 inch barrel, depending on the version).
see also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR15
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=267251&page=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Commando
http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants
Need more references?
Does it make sense now?
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Theairsoftdude
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| alex_kaeda wrote: |
I am sure that the information I posted is accurate.
| Theairsoftdude wrote: |
| "In the Teams, SEALs choose from a variety of rifles, handguns, and submachine guns, but the basic weapon is the M4. The M4 is a shortened refinement of the M16 rifle that has been a U.S. Military standered since the 1960's. It is similar to the CAR-15 in that it has a semicollapsible stock, but the M4 has a slighly longer barrel." |
What we are looking at here is order-of-operation.
What Dick Couch is saying can be summed up as this. The basic weapon is the M4. The M4 is a shortened version of the M16. The M16 (in various versions) has been in use since the 1960's. The M4 is similar to the CAR15, in that it has a short barrel, and a telescopic stock, but the M4 has a longer barrel (14.5 inches[i]) than most of the earlier versions ([i]the most common being the XM177 series, having a 10.5 or 11.5 inch barrel, depending on the version).
Does it make sense now? |
Yeah it came together. Thanks.
So the M16 varients have been in use since the 60's. The M4 is partly based of of the earlier XM177 series but being modified for a more pracital use in the SEAL arsenal.
*edit changed spelling*
*edit #2 added last sentance* |
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Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I
Age: 31
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7511
Location: Google makes me clever. Photoshop makes me beautiful.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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The M4/M4A1 is to the M16A2, what the XM177 is to the M16/M16A1.
The M4 was originally developed to meet a USMC Force Recon requirement
| Quote: |
| The USMC is the first to standardize the M4, with the goal of issuing them to their Special Operations Capable (SOC) units then under development. Reportedly, the only compact shoulder weapons authorized for use by Force Recon to this point has been the M3A1 SMG (bolstered by very unofficial use of XM177E2). Unfortunately, procurement funds for the Marines' carbines are killed during Congressional review in following budgets, and the matter is eventually dropped until the 1990s. |
All four services have adopted the M4. An M4 in use by a Army Infantryman in Iraq is going to be identical to an M4 in use by a SEAL (I am not going to address the issues of who's been issued what RIS/RAS system, or what optic is being issued by whom, or who gets an M203 slung under their weapon).
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Theairsoftdude
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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It comes even more into perspective now...
Anyway does anybody know why CA tagged this rifle with special porpouse Carbine?
I understand the carbine part now but otherwise it seems the same as the reg carbine.. |
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Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I
Age: 31
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7511
Location: Google makes me clever. Photoshop makes me beautiful.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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The Classic Army "Special Purpose Carbine" is (effectively) an M4 upper reciever, mated to an M16 lower reciever.
It has the benefit of a short barrel for mobility, and a full stock for a large type battery. At various points, soldiers have been observed carrying similar layouts (however, my understanding is that this is NOT a type-standardized layout). Tokyo Marui's version is known as the SR16.
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Theairsoftdude
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. |
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